Stacking, Spawncamping and You

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Postby Doom » Sat Nov 15, 2008 7:05 pm

I'm here to lay down my outlines of what are possibly the most whined about things in there server; and define them the best I can. Mind you, there are my own definitions; and my views to not reflect that of any other administrator.

(Pictures added to lighten the mood.)

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Stacking: Stacking occurs when one team is filled much more experienced players than the other, or what appears to be the definition by our players. By my own view, though, stacking is simply when one team is consistently steam-rolling the other. I'm not talking one or two rounds, more on the count of five or ten.

When to cry "Stacked Teams":
-When you notice that one team has a huge number of victories over the other. A one-to-four ratio at least.
-When the players on one team are doing much better than the others. When one top has 50 points, and the other can't even get 20.
-When almost all the regulars; talking about 9-12, not 3-4; are on one team. Leaving publics to the other.

When NOT to cry "Stacked Teams":
-When you lose a round.
-When you die.
-When you get dominated.
-When any well-known regular joins the opposite team to you.
-When you can't organize cooperation among your team.
-When a sole round lasts longer than four minutes or so.

What you can do about "Stacked Teams":
-Contact a admin in a polite form, over in-game text or Steam-Friends. I'd prefer Steam-Friends so others don't whine.
-Try to force some cooperation among your teammates.
-Class management, making sure your team doesn't have eight pyros and four snipers on defense.
-Ask for a vote-scramble; though don't do this unless it really constitutes as 'Stacked'. Otherwise you'll only be annoying me and looking like a whiner to other players.




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Spawncamping:Spawncamping is the lock-down of all possible spawn-door exits for a team. Though later in the match, this is regardless of team; at the start of the match, BLU needs to expected to be spawncamped. It's just gameplay mechanics. A lock-down can best be described as such a forceful offense/defense on the spawn-doors, that no one can exit them without being killed. Though lock-downs can be broken, they are horridly cheap and not very sportsman like in my opinion.

Spawn-Door = The door from which blocks the outside world and your physical spawn.
Spawn-Gate = The gate that opens up at the start of the round.

When to cry "Spawncamping":
-When you've been killed more than twice, after trying any different possible spawn-exits, by the same player.
-When a enemy player has sat outside your spawn for a very extended period of time, killing or pestering people on their way out.
-When there's a sentry able to shoot into your open spawn-door. (Less a map is expected of this; ala cp_aqua)

When NOT to cry "Spawncamping":
-When you keep getting killed by going out the same damn exit, when you have more. (cp_steel)
-When a player rushes by the spawn and kills you.
-When your gates are being camped.
-When you die near the start of a round on BLU team, in offense/defense maps.

What you can do about "Spawncamping":
-Tell them to back off.
-Contact a admin, to get them to tell the campers to back off.
-Get some coordination and kill the bastard.
-Ubercharge.
-Use a different door if possible.
-If all else fails, contact a admin telling them that all else has failed. They won't descend form the heavens wielding a ban-hammer, but they will probably slap/slay the campers.


And remember, the more you cry these things at ever little failure or death; the more likely my definitions will get more strict. I'm rather tried of hearing "Stacked!" after every win, and "Camping!" after every kill within a mile of the spawn.
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Postby Purplecat » Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:31 pm

Yeah, please try to be polite when contacting a admin about a problem. Shouting on someone because they're in charge won't exactly fix the problem faster.
Doom wrote:-Class management, making sure your team doesn't have eight pyros and four snipers on defense.
Sadly people doesn't listen when I tell them that we maybe need two less engineers and snipers, and more medics.

And if they don't listen... it dosen't take too long until I see three sentries going down at once by a single pyro, or four snipers oblivious to the fact that our intel is gone.
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Postby NikkyVix » Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:32 pm

Doom wrote:I'm here to lay down my outlines of what are possibly the most whined about things in there server; and define them the best I can. Mind you, there are my own definitions; and my views to not reflect that of any other administrator.

...

And remember, the more you cry these things at ever little failure or death; the more likely my definitions will get more strict. I'm rather tried of hearing "Stacked!" after every win, and "Camping!" after every kill within a mile of the spawn.


Consider these definitions and approaches seconded.

Additionally, we cannot stress enough that players are not totally helpless in most cases of spawn-camping...actually, NO cases, when you stop to remember that Medics can turn people invincible. No rules say you can't temporarily switch class to something effective for killing a camper. What we admins will do first is warn a spawn-camper to back off of the enemy's doors, and if they persist, we'll take a more direct action. But don't depend on Admins to fight your battles for you every time, especially if it would be quicker to just amass a force and kill the bastard(s).
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Postby Echoen » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:29 am

NikkyVix wrote:
Doom wrote:I'm here to lay down my outlines of what are possibly the most whined about things in there server; and define them the best I can. Mind you, there are my own definitions; and my views to not reflect that of any other administrator.

...

And remember, the more you cry these things at ever little failure or death; the more likely my definitions will get more strict. I'm rather tried of hearing "Stacked!" after every win, and "Camping!" after every kill within a mile of the spawn.


Consider these definitions and approaches seconded.

Additionally, we cannot stress enough that players are not totally helpless in most cases of spawn-camping...actually, NO cases, when you stop to remember that Medics can turn people invincible. No rules say you can't temporarily switch class to something effective for killing a camper. What we admins will do first is warn a spawn-camper to back off of the enemy's doors, and if they persist, we'll take a more direct action. But don't depend on Admins to fight your battles for you every time, especially if it would be quicker to just amass a force and kill the bastard(s).


And especially if the server is full and there are no admins.

I wonder what allowing players to "/votekick" or perhaps do something like '/voteslap" or "/votekill" would help, but that's a whole other bag of worms and rot that even just thinking about smells really bad. But hey. Just a thought. Consider it one of my many bad ideas >:)
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Postby Fernin » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:01 pm

A short note for Nikky and anyone else who thinks using a medic to break a spawn camp is a good idea: It's not. In the time it takes a medic in the spawn to build an uber an enemy can....

1. Build their own uber
2. Build enough sentries to knock an uber back into spawn doors
3. Move the bomb cart halfway, possibly even more across the map
4. Capture points


As you can see, medic uber is NOT a cure all.
The claims medic gives no anesthetic! 90-days delinquent get you Repo treatment! I’m the mask horror on your street corner, gonna make your momma mourn you, I’m the Night Surgeon!
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Postby pablofiasco » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:11 pm

a possssible solution, would be to give very, very limited abilitys to some of the more regular, trusted, non-admin players,
im talking a very restricked list of 1 or 2 helpful abilites (maybe a "call a vote" or something? i dunno)
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Postby NikkyVix » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:18 pm

Fernin wrote:A short note for Nikky and anyone else who thinks using a medic to break a spawn camp is a good idea: It's not. In the time it takes a medic in the spawn to build an uber an enemy can....

1. Build their own uber
2. Build enough sentries to knock an uber back into spawn doors
3. Move the bomb cart halfway, possibly even more across the map
4. Capture points


As you can see, medic uber is NOT a cure all.



So..your unspoken solution is to scream to Admins or cry until someone sm_slays the campers for you? Your reasons assume that your team is so blitheringly ineffective at getting out of their own spawn doors that the enemy can gain a foothold and establish a base, which is always ultimately doomed to fail if it even were to get that far. Think about it: A Medic's invincibility in the right combination can break an enemy's own base defense, and the natural inclination to focus on the invincible attackers' threat draws attention from their attacking teammates. So why is it useless in getting you free of your own spawn/resupply? Most camping cases don't even REQUIRE an ubercharge, and an ubercharge will pretty much ensure the destabilization of any siege for your teammates to get free. Allow me to counter those hypothetical reasons there:

Reason #1: Why would you be afraid of them having their own uber? They are in YOUR territory, at YOUR spawn/resupply area, and are far from any form of health or resupply to sustain a siege on your base. They WILL fail regardless of wether they have an uber.

Reason #2: If this were such a big deal, then most teams would never reach cap 1 on cp_dustbowl, pl_dbheights, pl_badwater, pl_Goldrush, or pl_Cave. You would all be screaming and crying about how unfair sentries in the field and ubers at the gates at startup are. To my observation, teams seem to usually be quite fine with eventually breaking the initial spawn territory siege on those maps.

Reason #3: I don't know, how long does it take you to build an uber? The time in the field can be drastically different from the time in the spawn at a resupply. A Medic's uber can be built in a spawn in roughly a minute or less, if you remember that the Ubercharge builds faster when healing a hurt team mate. What payload maps are won in a minute, to your knowledge? Even our Capture Point maps aren't over THAT quickly..not even first phase Dustbowl, which would require BLU to lock RED in its own spawn for this scenario to fit. That's something that, to my (albeit limited) knowledge, has NEVER happened on our server. Correct me with a specific genuine occasion if I am wrong. Are you saying it's possible for your entire RED team to be locked in the spawn/resupply by a few rebels, giving BLU free reign to move the bomb in that time?

If it is, and you need an uber on top of it just to get out while you vastly outnumber the campers who are most likely working on improvised attack, then...heh.

Reason #4: Refer to #3.

I will reiterate: If the case of camping comes up in the manner that Doom speaks of, you can call upon Admins if they are available to warn the bastards, and we'll get rid of any who don't comply. But in NO way are you helpless sheep left to bleat inside your own resupply room from the wolves outside of it. TF2 is about breaking defenses and gaining ground. Your classes are specialists in doing so.

Use them.
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Postby Fernin » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:41 am

You know Nikky you need to play a few games on the team getting camped. Problem here is most of the time either none of the admins are on to do anything or they're all on the team doing the camping (except witchie who does seem to try and keep the camping down). Now, enough self rightousness eh Nikky? After all not everyone is a winbomb ejaculating demovix yah know.

Also, counter points.

1: Not if they kill the entire team and everyone gets a nice fat 25 second respawn. I've had this multipul times which gave one team or the other plenty of time to uber and set up sentry defenses as well as dispenses. Not to mention ready access to nearby health and ammo spawns.

2: In case you haven't noticed, they don't. Oh wait, that's right. You always lump up with the stacked team so you don't notice. :roll:

3: Refer to number 2. More times than I can count we've had rounds last less than two-three minutes. Hell we had a dust bowl the other day that lasted less than a minute on two of the three stages....

4: Refer to 2 and 3. Further more it only it only takes a couple coordinated players to continually wipe out a team that's going through several consecutive series of 10-25 second respawns that's only allowing 1-2 out at a time who have to try and half a six+ cart push or similar point occupation.

5: An extra note on using an uber to get ride of those 'rebel' campers. Remeber how long it takes to build and uber. The consider the effectiveness of a sentry placed well away from the door but still in range too shoot.



As I've said to witchie, and I'm still just as sorry to say it now as I was then: "It's starting to not be fun to play here anymore when the 'regulars' are on because it's always a one sided slaughter."
The claims medic gives no anesthetic! 90-days delinquent get you Repo treatment! I’m the mask horror on your street corner, gonna make your momma mourn you, I’m the Night Surgeon!
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Postby Purplecat » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:00 am

Guys, the part with using a ubercharge to break spawncamping was a suggestion. It wasn't "do this before you cry about spawncamping" thing.
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Postby Echoen » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:33 am

Ouch, Fernin. Prepare to get stomped on. You brought up some pretty bad arguments -on top of- being pretty rude. As someone who's done more than his fair share of that, I can spot it when someone else does it.

First off, there is not a -single- Admin that I can point to that is 'always on the winning team'. Sure, the admins are often also very skilled players, but I can even use yesterday and the day before's many games as examples when a team loaded with regulars and admins got STOMPED on by a team of people I personally haven't seen that much before. Admin /=/ Winner. Secondly, NikkyVix is actually a very good example of someone who actively -counters- stacking, I've seen it with my own eyes. I'd say that Witchie, Nikky, and Ailure are three good examples of admins that fight stacking when they see it, often by switching to the losing team, or not switching to the winning team like so many of us are guilty of from time to time, myself included.

Nikky and I and a slew of regulars have both been in games when we've been camped and camped hard. I can remember a few times where I said "Hey, wait, before you guys start yelling at them to frakk off of spawn.... lets MURDER them!" and, since I most often play Medic, built up an uber right quick and proceeded, usually with Nikky hirself, to blow the shit out of every bit of spawncamp they had set up. It CAN be done, it IS done fairly often, and while a long respawn time does usually suck, 25 seconds is impossible. That's not how respawn works; the absolute maximum you can get is 20 seconds, if you happen to die at the exact wrong time when the 10-second wave is released and you're latched onto 20 seconds. Or 10 seconds, if the map has progressed meaningfully enough. i'm not completely certain that is how it works, but I know 20 seconds is the most you will ever wait on TFP.

Rounds do sometimes go quickly, but even a little bit of team co-ordination can turn a 2-minute-long stomping into a much more even battle; balanced classes, and defending the engineers while they set up their shit can do WONDERS to holding a place. Even if you're just a lone pyro, airblasting away those stickies, rockets, grenades, and spychecking for the engineers goes a long, long way to getting a stable front line.

While it MAY take a couple of good players to wipe out a team, all it takes is for you and your team to adapt to their stratagy and prepare for it.

However, in liue of all of just said... something I've noticed. Past few weeks, I've been playing on the CC2 servers quite a bit, about just as much as I play on TFP. I -have- to admit... while I may love the people here, the gameplay and team balance is just SO much more on the CC2 servers! Consistently the CC2 teams are decently balanced with a lot of good players. I'd say that 2/5 games on TFP are games that are stacked, while perhaps 1/7 games on CC2 are stacked games. I'm just saying... while the players themselves may usually be more dickish on CC2, maybe there's some elements that TFP could learn from there. I know you admins and leaders of TFP might chafe a lot to hear any praise whatsoever about CC2, even to the point where you might want to froth and say "If you don't like TFP then go play on CC2!", but, frankly.... it really says something when the 'more balanced and fun' award starts going BACK to CC2.
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