Map Loading Problem

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Postby Small Girl » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:30 am

Earlier this evening I asked if HTTP fast downloading was enabled on the server and suggested that the Admin enable it if it was not.

Endeavour3d : people keep telling me what I should do without practical suggestions on HOW TO DO IT
Endeavour3d : I have map downloading on the server, it's broke, there is no other option
Small Girl w/ Big Gun : well ctf_aerospace is the biggest map i've ever downloaded and that only took 10 mins... so either you don't have fast http
Small Girl w/ Big Gun : downloading enabled or it isn't setup correctly
Endeavour3d : fuck it
Stray : why the fuck are you still BITCHING?
Jake Monroe : god damn, shut up already
Small Girl w/ Big Gun : i'm not bitching i was suggesting how he could fix the problem
Stray : no, you were whining and thats IT

I don't think it was "whiney" to make this suggestion. Whenever the server lands on a custom map, half the players disappear. These players continue to occupy slots on the server while they spend 30+ minutes at a loading screen downloading the map. This not only makes the server unplayable for the people downloading the map, but others waiting for a chance to sign onto the server and play with their friends. Because the players downloading these maps do not want to lose their slot, many of them choose to endure the 30+ minute wait (rather than go to FPSBanana where they can download it faster) while teams of only 5 people meander across maps much too large for them to enjoy anyways.

Ailure : We already have a HTTP server
Ailure : Apache infact
Ailure : the problem is that something is causing the bandwidth to be limited

If the HTTP server is on a separate, even dedicated, line then that just makes this situation even worse. That means it is not competing with the game server for bandwidth and therefore not setup properly (or enabled in the first place). If the Admin needs help with this I would be willing to offer it.

Jake Monroe : the download http server is on the game server. they share bandwidth

If the bandwidth was that limited the game server could not be run, because TF2 itself uses a ton of bandwidth compared to other servers. Everyone would have pings of 2000. I guarantee there is no way you could have 10 people downloading a map for 30+ minutes by HTTP and still be able to run a TF2 server on the same bandwidth.

Jake Monroe : a game doesn't need as much badnwidth at once because it only has to send specific packets.

TF2 uses a ton of bandwidth, which is why it is hardcoded at a 60 tickrate. The server and the line don't distinguish between maps and data packets either, so it doesn't make sense that one would be affected while the other was not.

Adriana The Herm Wolf Taur : STFU FFS about bandwidth everyone knows that devicated FTP servers deliver better downloads since they can use BZ2 compression

FTP and HTTP are different. I was not taking about FTP. I was suggesting HTTP fast downloading.

Console : WE are using HTTP downloads

The average size of a custom map is 20MB, so that's around 500 kilobytes (half a megabyte) being downloaded every minute. There is no reason that a map should be taking that long to download on an HTTP fast download enabled server unless it is not setup properly or (more likely) it is not setup at all in the first place. So, I'd encourage the Admin to look into how they setup the fast downloading, assuming if it was enabled at all, as that is likely the source of the problem. If the Admin needs help setting it up I am willing to offer it too.
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Postby Purplecat » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:53 am

As stated earlier we already have a HTTP server for fast downloading, Infact you can see it here if you're curious.

It currently just have a strange bandwidth related problem which perhaps might be related to MPU or the router. Worst case we might just host it elsewhere, but for now it actually works good enough for maps that aren't too big.

I know how to set up a HTTP server, done it plenty of times.

I also have a backup plan to set up the files elsewhere if we can't get the bandwidth problem fixed.

Sorry if we sound snarky or anything about this, but we're annoyed about it as other people are. It's better than nothing, yet we wish it would be better.
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Postby Jake Monroe » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:19 am

Ailure wrote:As stated earlier we already have a HTTP server for fast downloading, Infact you can see it here if you're curious.


FFFFF GET OFF


HAHA!
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Postby STrRedWolf » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:30 pm

Small Girl wrote:Adriana The Herm Wolf Taur : STFU FFS about bandwidth everyone knows that devicated FTP servers deliver better downloads since they can use BZ2 compression

FTP and HTTP are different. I was not taking about FTP. I was suggesting HTTP fast downloading.


Excuse me while I bring out my cluebat here.

FTP and HTTP are different protocols for getting files. HTTP is one-shot, request and get, same channel. FTP requires alot of setup, uses two TCP/IP ports per PC to transfer anything, and is slightly slower... and that doesn't include compression.

HTTP has optional compression if the server and client supports it. FTP DOES NOT and has no capacity for it. Of course, if you pre-compress your map files with gzip or bzip2, you're back on "how long it takes to get a file/setup a transfer."

If you think differently, then talk to the Internet Engineering Task Force. Compare RFC 959 (File Transfer Protocol) with RFC 2616 (Hyper Text Transfer Protocol v1.1).
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Postby Small Girl » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:33 am

Ailure wrote:As stated earlier we already have a HTTP server for fast downloading, Infact you can see it here if you're curious.

It currently just have a strange bandwidth related problem which perhaps might be related to MPU or the router. Worst case we might just host it elsewhere, but for now it actually works good enough for maps that aren't too big.


Although it works well enough for smaller maps there are still some really large ones on the cycle. Until the problem is fixed, would you consider removing some of these larger maps and/or replacing them with smaller ones? I think it would make a lot of players happier in the meantime (especially the ones playing from foreign countries).

Ailure wrote:I know how to set up a HTTP server, done it plenty of times.

I also have a backup plan to set up the files elsewhere if we can't get the bandwidth problem fixed.


Well in that case it could be that the ISP is throttling the upload rates on the http port. Most ISP's use the same port for their default http port and some will limit the speed of uploads on that port if they don't want their clients using it to run servers (same as how some limit commonly used P2P ports). I doubt that most ISPs know what bz2 files are and would limit download speed on them, but it is a definite possibility. It wouldn't hurt to look at your Apache settings a second time just in case though. I overlook things all the time.

Another thing: I doubt this is the cause of the problem, but while the server software doesn't differenciate between case in map names, Apache does when it comes to files. This could lead to a not found error if the server asks for map.bsp when Apache only sees Map.bsp. I'm sure you already know this since most of the maps are lowercase, but you seem to have overlooked a few with capitalizations while uploading (like cp_Blackmesa.bsp.bz2). It wouldn't hurt to edit them.

Ailure wrote:Sorry if we sound snarky or anything about this, but we're annoyed about it as other people are. It's better than nothing, yet we wish it would be better.


N/P. I wasn't trying to whine or complain either; I was genuinely curious as to whether or not there was a separate http server and/or http fast downloading enabled. I was just trying to help since this is the favorite server of two of my Japanese friends and neither have been able to connect since this issue came up.

STrRedWolf wrote:
Small Girl wrote:Adriana The Herm Wolf Taur : STFU FFS about bandwidth everyone knows that devicated FTP servers deliver better downloads since they can use BZ2 compression

FTP and HTTP are different. I was not taking about FTP. I was suggesting HTTP fast downloading.


Excuse me while I bring out my cluebat here.

FTP and HTTP are different protocols for getting files. HTTP is one-shot, request and get, same channel. FTP requires alot of setup, uses two TCP/IP ports per PC to transfer anything, and is slightly slower... and that doesn't include compression.

HTTP has optional compression if the server and client supports it. FTP DOES NOT and has no capacity for it. Of course, if you pre-compress your map files with gzip or bzip2, you're back on "how long it takes to get a file/setup a transfer."

If you think differently, then talk to the Internet Engineering Task Force. Compare RFC 959 (File Transfer Protocol) with RFC 2616 (Hyper Text Transfer Protocol v1.1).


I know the difference between http and ftp. But I was not discussing ftp on the server that day. I was discussing http fast downloading for TF2 server. Sorry for any confusion.
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Postby Endeavour3d » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:07 am

Without getting too much into it right now I'm just going to say that we have a dedicated 30MBPS connection and it isn't throttled or filtered, doing so would bring down a lawsuit on the ISP of biblical proportions. They wouldn't offer a business class dedicated connection without expecting it to be used for servers. Also, if the foreign players are in such a hurry to play on the server they can just go download the maps themselves from FPSBanana. I'm not going to deactivate downloading just because a small percentage of people are having issues. Were still working on the issue and I don't know how long it will take, I'm not the only one that uses this connection so I can't mess with router settings without possibly causing problems with other clients so I'm going to take this slow. Until this is resolved we will refrain from playing on custom maps or people are just going to have to suck it up and get the maps elsewhere.
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Postby Jake Monroe » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:53 pm

Endeavour3d wrote:Without getting too much into it right now I'm just going to say that we have a dedicated 30MBPS connection and it isn't throttled or filtered, doing so would bring down a lawsuit on the ISP of biblical proportions. They wouldn't offer a business class dedicated connection without expecting it to be used for servers. Also, if the foreign players are in such a hurry to play on the server they can just go download the maps themselves from FPSBanana. I'm not going to deactivate downloading just because a small percentage of people are having issues. Were still working on the issue and I don't know how long it will take, I'm not the only one that uses this connection so I can't mess with router settings without possibly causing problems with other clients so I'm going to take this slow. Until this is resolved we will refrain from playing on custom maps or people are just going to have to suck it up and get the maps elsewhere.


Ah, the joys of hosting a server at a business.
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