Stacking, Spawncamping and You

Discuss TF2! Or don't. Whatever takes your fancy.

Postby Norithics » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:10 am

Here's my take on it, which is bound to be unpopular by anyone.

Doom, Nikky and the like (not trying to point fingers, this is just a majority sampling of my play time on TFP) aren't jerks out to ruin your fun. All the same, those who cry teamstacking aren't wrong, or just whining without reason. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Let's be real here. People like playing with their friends. It's fun. The admins of the server are not, and should not be expected to be less or more than human and not given to the temptation to do what's most fun in a game. When I'm on a team with Doom and Nikky and their many, many friends, I observe not really hateful play- well, Doom could be a better sport and I'm sure he knows that- but rather a group of people who are having fun the best way they know how.

Does this mean that it's going to be hard to be on the other team? Yes. And Witchie? Honestly, there's no fix for this without the admin job becoming exactly that- a job- something hated to do and unenjoyable by the tenant. As someone who regularly has to be in a leadership position, I understand this and would really implore you not to try and take the long, hard road on this one lest you start to dislike the whole thing in general.

I think the easiest thing at this point would be to simply say, "Teamstacking happens. Try and organize your team, or wait to be on ours." I mean, it is a server, and every server has its rules. Just... be honest about it. If people see a rule that isn't being enforced, they cry foul. If there's no rule for it, then there's no justification for the complaint.

I have fun with you guys, but honestly, this is going to turn into a monster on you if you're not careful.
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Postby Purplecat » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:30 am

Just stating that if people ask for it, I usually start a scramble poll and then scramble after my personal judgment (usually when it's around 50% or so). Just remember that I might not always be too responsive if I'm in the middle of a game though (Just use the "public" ingame chat if I'm in the same game). I do sometimes start the poll of my own if I feel that the game is stacked in one direction or another, but don't expect this to be guaranteed (so always ask). I might do something to automate this task. As for the team scramble algorithm sucking... well that's another problem.

I'm staying out of the general politics with this issue though.
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Postby Norithics » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:41 am

I'm curious, does the scramble function do anything right away, or do you have to finish the round first? I've never observed it doing much after the vote, is all.

And again, I'm totally not trying to blame anybody. Frankly, I wouldn't want your jobs. If you can pull this whole thing off, I'll be impressed.

Edit: And one more thing. Again, from experience, I want you to know something. You can't beat the mob. You can do your best, you can do the best, you can pour yourself into everything as much as possible, and there will still be a big group that wants to see you fail. Keep that in mind when you make any decisions, but don't let the legitimate ones blend in. That's been one of my biggest challenges, and I thought I should share it with you.
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Postby Purplecat » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:49 am

*shrug* It's more of a case with me trying to keep myself to the technical sides of running things around here (making sure that the server and it's download server is running fine and dandy) and keep myself out of the rest. I do of course do other kind of admin work when it's necessary though. ;)

And the current team scramble command scrambles 5 seconds after it's "activated". It doesn't even let you finish the round, which can be awkward in some situations (which is why I at least let the round run out before I scramble sometimes, but this is a map to map thing...).
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Postby Makaze » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:58 pm

Doom wrote:I'm not sure how to make this anymore clear:
Losing is a part of Team Fortress 2

You have to accept a losing a match every now and then. Regardless of how much you scramble about teams; there's always going to be a losing team. Let's say you do get it perfectly scrambled, too, then it turns into stalemates; which are just about as much fun as a win/loss. Asking for a scramble after a team has been steam-rolled repeatedly, through a couple rounds, is nothing wrong. However, asking for one at the start of a match because you're scared of another player is not. You get better through defeats, not constant victories. The reason I'm hesitant to vie for a vote-scramble is I know certain regulars who will abuse it at the start of every match because they didn't get on a favorable team. Besides, it's called Team Fortress 2; if you worked up some teamwork and learn how to manage with teammates you don't know, it's the greatest skill you can obtain. Far better than forcing auto-balance, switching sides mid-game, and constantly crying about stacking and how there needs to be a balance.

I know I'm a bit cruel on this situation; and it's not because it's not a valid issue, it's because people exaggerate it and cry about it around every bend and turn. I get real tired of seeing "Great, -good regular here- is on the other team. Time to give up." or "-Good regular here- IS ON THE OTHER TEAM. TOTALLY NOT STACKING."

Gotta learn life isn't fair, and teams will never be unless every player is a exact perfect clone of the other playing as the same class on a symmetrical map.


Life isnt fair *noogies* It's a game hun not life, but that thought/comment could go into more philosophical speak saved for another time, but I can understand your point, specially having been on a team, where we literally communicated every intention and plan to slow down a "stacked" team (if I remember, was you , Nikky, Witchy, Frau and Jonsey) and despite every coordinated effort, we were steam rolled 4 games straight with maybe one capture out of the batch. Yes we lost, but I do feel when it is quite obvious a team is trying their damnedest and gets bum rushed regardless, its a bit demeaning and joy killing after a bit. So I can understand calls for scramble in that situation, but one can only be waylaid so long before it breaks your team spirit and you go, why bother or, okay this is fun, or team dynamic and raaaarg lets get im guys mindset goes, meh fuggit. So yes it is a game, yes it is meant to be won, lost, whatever and you get better because of either one, little strategies open up and what not..... Though *giggle* that one victory sometimes says something, it's akin to being the amatuer boxer who despite getting knocked out during the bout, manages to down the world champ for 5 seconds, and that in and of itself can make losing somewhat enjoyable, going HEY! YEAH YOU! MR/MRS/IT BADASS, I MAY DIE BUT I FUCKED YOU UP BEFORE I WENT
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Postby Angry_Squirrel » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:17 am

Y'know, I just realized something the other day. Team stacking occurs most often when there is an incomplete server in terms of regulars - around 1/4 the people on the server get on the same team because they know each other, and the rest in the server is made up of pubfags, and 90% of pubfags don't know how to play. The team opposing the regulars' team often gets creamed until more regulars come to balance out the other side - Ragequits abound on the other side, pubfags quit when they start losing from the winning side and people newly joining don't end up getting a chance to join the regulars' side, and the cycle of ragequits continues. While the ratio of competent players is imbalanced, the game remains stacked - regulars are most often better to balance teams than relying on a good skilled pubfag coming in to balance the odds. It does happen, but not a lot, because the rest of the pubfags on the losing team don't know what teamwork is. One or two really skilled players plus no support from teammates can't trump a handful of friends who know what they're doing and how to work together - usually. Usually.
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Postby Dravu » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:02 am

Doom wrote:I'm not sure how to make this anymore clear:
Losing is a part of Team Fortress 2

You have to accept a losing a match every now and then. Regardless of how much you scramble about teams; there's always going to be a losing team. Let's say you do get it perfectly scrambled, too, then it turns into stalemates; which are just about as much fun as a win/loss. Asking for a scramble after a team has been steam-rolled repeatedly, through a couple rounds, is nothing wrong. However, asking for one at the start of a match because you're scared of another player is not. You get better through defeats, not constant victories. The reason I'm hesitant to vie for a vote-scramble is I know certain regulars who will abuse it at the start of every match because they didn't get on a favorable team. Besides, it's called Team Fortress 2; if you worked up some teamwork and learn how to manage with teammates you don't know, it's the greatest skill you can obtain. Far better than forcing auto-balance, switching sides mid-game, and constantly crying about stacking and how there needs to be a balance.

I know I'm a bit cruel on this situation; and it's not because it's not a valid issue, it's because people exaggerate it and cry about it around every bend and turn. I get real tired of seeing "Great, -good regular here- is on the other team. Time to give up." or "-Good regular here- IS ON THE OTHER TEAM. TOTALLY NOT STACKING."

Gotta learn life isn't fair, and teams will never be unless every player is a exact perfect clone of the other playing as the same class on a symmetrical map.
I've seen many times where team scores were pathetic. One team would have double or sometimes triple that of the other team and it wasn't just because of the offense/defense info. Teams were genuinely uneven. Then you would join and I'd think "oh. Doom's here. Maybe he'll help gather the losing team and get them/us somewhere.", but no. You would join the winning team and laugh as you began raping them with the rest of the other team. I honestly hold your word very low in this matter as I'm sure many others do as well. Not to mention your many instances of spawncamping and other rule breakings have found yourself put as pretty immature.
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Postby Doom » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:06 pm

Dravu wrote:Not to mention your many instances of spawncamping and other rule breakings have found yourself put as pretty immature.


I'm not going to bother to call you out on anything but this; I'd like some examples of the 'many instances' when I was spawncamping. It may have been in your books, but by server rules; it's more along the lines of a lockdown of every spawn-door, normally by more than a single person. I'm sorry if I iffed you or your teammates because you were rushing out on offense and caught a critical-nade to the face, but I don't try to make it a goal to spawncamp; of course, unless I'm on RED at the start of a map like Goldrush or Dustbowl. As for the other rule-breakings, the only thing that even vaguely comes to mind is possible HLSS use, which isn't against any rule 'less it be a full-fledged song.

That said, if I'm doing something you don't like, please tell me directly. Don't give me vague instances and insults.
Typed after a marginal amount of sleep, probably not the best shit I've written.
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Postby Purplecat » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:51 pm

This might be stubborn, but I will refuse to scramble teams if I realize that there's a huge reason why one team is losing badly.

Such as 50% of the teams players being snipers.
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Postby Dravu » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:53 pm

Doom wrote:
Dravu wrote:Not to mention your many instances of spawncamping and other rule breakings have found yourself put as pretty immature.


I'm not going to bother to call you out on anything but this; I'd like some examples of the 'many instances' when I was spawncamping. It may have been in your books, but by server rules; it's more along the lines of a lockdown of every spawn-door, normally by more than a single person. I'm sorry if I iffed you or your teammates because you were rushing out on offense and caught a critical-nade to the face, but I don't try to make it a goal to spawncamp; of course, unless I'm on RED at the start of a map like Goldrush or Dustbowl. As for the other rule-breakings, the only thing that even vaguely comes to mind is possible HLSS use, which isn't against any rule 'less it be a full-fledged song.

That said, if I'm doing something you don't like, please tell me directly. Don't give me vague instances and insults.
Typed after a marginal amount of sleep, probably not the best shit I've written.

I've had you put sticky bombs repeatedly on spawn door multiple times when we were well into the round and you had no business doing it. The last time it happened, luckily Nicky was there and told you to stop. Being on defense at the start of a payload map and starting off putting sticky bombs on the gates is normal. I have no problem with that. Even scattering them around on the ground outside them the first minute or so as the cart is still right there in front.
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