Stacking, Spawncamping and You
by Kellervo » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:35 am
I think the one problem to the 'end-all' of anti-spawn camping is this:
It takes a full minute to charge an uber. If you're on defense:
cp_dustbowl's points can be captured within a minute and a half, that's two points gone and an uber wasted if it's a steamroll (and indeed, I've seen dustbowl matches last not even a minute and a half, meaning those that died defending point A maybe had one more life and got butchered as they ran out of the spawn to frantically prevent a cap). It might sound unreal, but it's happened plenty of times in my experience.
In Well and Granary, waiting to charge an uber means that you've in all likelihood lost the second point (around 30 seconds with one person), and odds are you will instantaneously lose the last point if you're bottled up in your spawn.
In -any- intel map, by the time your uber is charged, you'll have already lost the intel once and odds are the enemy will have already taken it again and cleared it from your base, so basically two caps.
On Goldrush? Probably, you'll lose a point and will lose the second because it's nigh impossible to throw three heavies and medics off of a moving bomb cart with anything short of a crit-pyro rush. Not to mention any demomen or pyros around to shove you around or launch you into the atmosphere.
Badwater and Gravelpit are probably the only maps where having to sit in your spawn to build an uber isn't an automatic death sentence. In both cases you'll probably lose one, maybe two points, and in some cases three, but it's not a near guaranteed failure.
On offense it's not quite as bad, but odds are that will burn a minute or two, or three, that you can't afford to lose. Unless you've absolutely rolled the opposition (and in all likelihood you haven't if you're not even capable of breaking out of your spawn gates), odds are you'll have at most 6-7 minutes to take a point, and getting pent up in your spawn for half that time makes it nearly impossible to push all the way across the map to take the point, especially if the defending team has a half-decent defense set up to take care of the uberless, and likely half-dead medics and pyros/heavies/demomen coming out of the attacking spawn gates.
Basically, what I'm saying is, if it gets to the point where a team has to stop playing for a minute to stand a remote chance in hell at getting past their own spawn doors, it's stacking and/or spawn-camping and should be addressed. The point of the game is to have fun, and as one of the chaps who's had to spend plenty of time sitting in the spawn waiting for that uber, it's not really fun doing that, especially with people constantly on the mic or on the teamchat ranting and bitching about the teams and how they need to be fixed.
It takes a full minute to charge an uber. If you're on defense:
cp_dustbowl's points can be captured within a minute and a half, that's two points gone and an uber wasted if it's a steamroll (and indeed, I've seen dustbowl matches last not even a minute and a half, meaning those that died defending point A maybe had one more life and got butchered as they ran out of the spawn to frantically prevent a cap). It might sound unreal, but it's happened plenty of times in my experience.
In Well and Granary, waiting to charge an uber means that you've in all likelihood lost the second point (around 30 seconds with one person), and odds are you will instantaneously lose the last point if you're bottled up in your spawn.
In -any- intel map, by the time your uber is charged, you'll have already lost the intel once and odds are the enemy will have already taken it again and cleared it from your base, so basically two caps.
On Goldrush? Probably, you'll lose a point and will lose the second because it's nigh impossible to throw three heavies and medics off of a moving bomb cart with anything short of a crit-pyro rush. Not to mention any demomen or pyros around to shove you around or launch you into the atmosphere.
Badwater and Gravelpit are probably the only maps where having to sit in your spawn to build an uber isn't an automatic death sentence. In both cases you'll probably lose one, maybe two points, and in some cases three, but it's not a near guaranteed failure.
On offense it's not quite as bad, but odds are that will burn a minute or two, or three, that you can't afford to lose. Unless you've absolutely rolled the opposition (and in all likelihood you haven't if you're not even capable of breaking out of your spawn gates), odds are you'll have at most 6-7 minutes to take a point, and getting pent up in your spawn for half that time makes it nearly impossible to push all the way across the map to take the point, especially if the defending team has a half-decent defense set up to take care of the uberless, and likely half-dead medics and pyros/heavies/demomen coming out of the attacking spawn gates.
Basically, what I'm saying is, if it gets to the point where a team has to stop playing for a minute to stand a remote chance in hell at getting past their own spawn doors, it's stacking and/or spawn-camping and should be addressed. The point of the game is to have fun, and as one of the chaps who's had to spend plenty of time sitting in the spawn waiting for that uber, it's not really fun doing that, especially with people constantly on the mic or on the teamchat ranting and bitching about the teams and how they need to be fixed.
I'm a shaaark
I'm a shaaark!
You know what to do. :v
I'm a shaaark!
You know what to do. :v
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Kellervo - Posts: 104
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by Witchiebunny » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:49 pm
Jumping in to remind EVERYONE that civility and respect is needed here. Fernin, if you're drunk and angry, try not to post until you've calmed down-you've been very disrespectful to quite a few on this topic and while I understand your frustration, behaving in this manner is a quick way to draw *my* ire. As it is, you get to retype that (I'm sending the post to you) in a civil way and I'm deleting the post.
Discussion continues.
Discussion continues.
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Witchiebunny - Posts: 755
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by Jinx » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:32 pm
I agree with pretty much everything Doom and Nikky have said, so I only have a couple minor things to add:
Stacking--An interesting problem that seems to grow as the number of skilled players increases. While stacking still occurs (and will continue to, it can't possibly be removed entirely), it does appear to be in decline as more players adopt a more sportsman-like behavior. We also shouldn't be so quick to forget the number of good games that have been had the moment one steamroll game comes along.
And I can't even remember the last serious case of spawn camping. Usually spawn campers are easily dispatched because there are never health/ammo packs immediately outside of spawn. If demos are stickying spawn, just be sure any live players rush out as soon as the exit is clear (even if somebody has to sacrifice themselves), coming out of spawn piecemeal is a good way to stay spawn camped. If the situation is becoming serious, players on the front lines should be alerted to retreat and help fend off the attackers. If all this time has gone by and the defending team still cannot dislodge the attackers, then the defending team probably doesn't deserve to win this round.
In all cases we win some, we lose some. Just relax and play to have fun.
Stacking--An interesting problem that seems to grow as the number of skilled players increases. While stacking still occurs (and will continue to, it can't possibly be removed entirely), it does appear to be in decline as more players adopt a more sportsman-like behavior. We also shouldn't be so quick to forget the number of good games that have been had the moment one steamroll game comes along.
And I can't even remember the last serious case of spawn camping. Usually spawn campers are easily dispatched because there are never health/ammo packs immediately outside of spawn. If demos are stickying spawn, just be sure any live players rush out as soon as the exit is clear (even if somebody has to sacrifice themselves), coming out of spawn piecemeal is a good way to stay spawn camped. If the situation is becoming serious, players on the front lines should be alerted to retreat and help fend off the attackers. If all this time has gone by and the defending team still cannot dislodge the attackers, then the defending team probably doesn't deserve to win this round.
In all cases we win some, we lose some. Just relax and play to have fun.
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Jinx - Posts: 985
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by Mortician175 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:02 pm
Spawn camping in general, is a dishonourable tactic in my opinion (blame my old sense of honour, a trait which is dying out swiftly in the world) It should not be permitted, nor should it be encouraged *gives dagger eyes to doom and nikky* A siege is not an easy thing to break if a team makes a concentrated effort on it. i've seen it many times on other servers, even when we were all communicating and doing what we could to fight off the seigers. Honestly though, it cannot be stopped. I do agree, some "drive bys" are okay by me, but i hate to say this. The Guide lines seem more of an excuse for people to spawn camp because i can see someone going "Oh lawl go read dooms Spawn camping and you thread lawlawllawl" you know it, i know it, TFP knows that this would happen. I'm not saying anyone here is the bad guy and honestly, spy spawncamping isn't that big a deal with me. Sure it pisses me off but its only one guy who gets knifed the offending spah gets raped horribly... prefferably with mama pyro's guideing flames of justice :v. Anywho back on topic. Ubers do work on certain maps and situations, also teamwork is a pivotal thing hence the name TEAM Fortress. However i don't see how people get kicks off of hordeing enemies into their spawn then just sitting there and rapeing them for the duration of the match. No honour or challenge in the fight at all. But in all honesty. We should drop the subject of spawn camping and team stacking. We really cant do anything about it at all. im not saying we shouldn't try. But atleast letup a bit on it. (Shocking i know this is comming from me since im known as the resident rager furry by CERTAIN people of TFP..... you know who you are. *insert rapeings with a pitchfork here*)
on a totally random note http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko4Q0cgo1N8 for you warhammer 40 and fantasy nuts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW_EigrG8VQ and just for lulz
on a totally random note http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko4Q0cgo1N8 for you warhammer 40 and fantasy nuts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW_EigrG8VQ and just for lulz
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by RumRunner » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:56 pm
Here is my take on this particular issue. Stacking and spawn camping are both unsportsmanlike and dishonorable. Now most of the time this isn't too bad and thus isn't a problem. There are however particular maps/times that such things are likely to take place.
Maps: Steel: (At least one maybe 2 of 3 exits can be expected to be camped at some point in the match)
Cave: [NOTE: I AM NOT RANTING ABOUT THE SPAWN-CAMP-OUT-THE-ASS I AM MERELY USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE.](Only serious case of spawn camping I have seen occurred on this map, again teams heavily stacked red virtually all regs, blu all pubs 'cept for me, random fluffy, and maybe one or two others. The other regs did their best to have fun but by the time I joined the camping had already begun. (The team prior to round start had no class balance what-so-ever and no medics or engis to protect the area given to them at round start) Needless to say with horrible class balance and poor coordination they were wiped out and pushed back into spawn. Due to short respawn time effective waves could not be made as pubs generally will only work in a group by random chance. (With all-talk on effective coordination could not be made over Doom's constant taunting.) So thus continued the 5+ min first round of cave. During this time as medic I got three ubers used them all and still the camping did not get broken. So when an organized team goes up against a disorganized team there is really NOTHING that can be done. Yet when admins were asked to do something about it the reply was merely "it is the entire team there is nothing we can do about it" ... BIG SURPRISE! /sarcasm. In the end out of all of the maps this one has the biggest potential for a "defensive" spawn-camping simply because all 3 exits are in a straight line and can easily be covered by a few people and the large area makes it hard to kill those camping the exits from the relative safety of the spawn area.)
Mach4: "Camping the intel" does occur and since it is by the spawn camping spawn and intel can and is done all at once.
Turbine: Again "camping the intel" however the stairway to the intel is also frequently guarded when such a thing occurs which guess what? is right by the spawn door exit.
Pretty much any offense-defense map: Temporary (usually) spawn camping will probably occur on these maps it is a fact of defense.
Times stacking and spawn-camping are likely to occur:
When Doom is on is the most likely time for either of these two to occur. (Not really his fault most of the time but his presence is still the cause of it) We all have seen the effect of the giant fucking magnet on doom's ass that seems to draw regs and medics to him like a nomming heavy draws all other classes to him during arena. It is annoying but this kind of thing is the primary reason the stacking occurs. WWith the stacking comes a more organized team with increased organization the chances of spawn camping successfully or at all increases greatly.
Should Doom not be on the following people seem to draw regs to them as well: Nikkyvix, Ailure, Endeav, Red Eye, Witchie, and occasionally Luca and Jake. The stacking is no where near as bad with these people and with Witchie the chances of spawn-camping are generally rather low. But when they are on they tend to draw people to them as well and cause stacking just by their mere presence (again said stacking is no where near as bad as that caused by Doom's presence (which occurs whether he likes it or not))
Solution to these problems I really cannot see any that would not create more and worse problems than we already have.
Since I find very little to no fun when large amounts of stacking occurs (or being forced to not play a specific class b/c of who is on the other team in order to NOT be specifically targeted by them, aka engi when Doom is on (I don't blame him it is the demo's job to blow my stuff to hell but it is still incredibly annoying to be targeted)) I tend to avoid the instances which cause the most frustration for me in the game (hence why I have not been plying tf2 when Doom is on or leaving a round or two after he joins) Simply b/c the stacking and being targeted becomes too frustrating and to avoid said frustration the only solution I can see is not playing when the chances of its occurrence is highest. Thus far said solution has worked rather well.
Should I randomly think of a solution for everyone I shall share it but at the moment I have only thought of a solution that works for me, and may seem like a jack-ass move to some people, but I am doing what I have to to have fun (which generally includes being a help to the team) So until such a time as a true effective solution is found I shall use this temporary fix.
Anyways that is all I will say on that.
/end wall-o-text.
Maps: Steel: (At least one maybe 2 of 3 exits can be expected to be camped at some point in the match)
Cave: [NOTE: I AM NOT RANTING ABOUT THE SPAWN-CAMP-OUT-THE-ASS I AM MERELY USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE.](Only serious case of spawn camping I have seen occurred on this map, again teams heavily stacked red virtually all regs, blu all pubs 'cept for me, random fluffy, and maybe one or two others. The other regs did their best to have fun but by the time I joined the camping had already begun. (The team prior to round start had no class balance what-so-ever and no medics or engis to protect the area given to them at round start) Needless to say with horrible class balance and poor coordination they were wiped out and pushed back into spawn. Due to short respawn time effective waves could not be made as pubs generally will only work in a group by random chance. (With all-talk on effective coordination could not be made over Doom's constant taunting.) So thus continued the 5+ min first round of cave. During this time as medic I got three ubers used them all and still the camping did not get broken. So when an organized team goes up against a disorganized team there is really NOTHING that can be done. Yet when admins were asked to do something about it the reply was merely "it is the entire team there is nothing we can do about it" ... BIG SURPRISE! /sarcasm. In the end out of all of the maps this one has the biggest potential for a "defensive" spawn-camping simply because all 3 exits are in a straight line and can easily be covered by a few people and the large area makes it hard to kill those camping the exits from the relative safety of the spawn area.)
Mach4: "Camping the intel" does occur and since it is by the spawn camping spawn and intel can and is done all at once.
Turbine: Again "camping the intel" however the stairway to the intel is also frequently guarded when such a thing occurs which guess what? is right by the spawn door exit.
Pretty much any offense-defense map: Temporary (usually) spawn camping will probably occur on these maps it is a fact of defense.
Times stacking and spawn-camping are likely to occur:
When Doom is on is the most likely time for either of these two to occur. (Not really his fault most of the time but his presence is still the cause of it) We all have seen the effect of the giant fucking magnet on doom's ass that seems to draw regs and medics to him like a nomming heavy draws all other classes to him during arena. It is annoying but this kind of thing is the primary reason the stacking occurs. WWith the stacking comes a more organized team with increased organization the chances of spawn camping successfully or at all increases greatly.
Should Doom not be on the following people seem to draw regs to them as well: Nikkyvix, Ailure, Endeav, Red Eye, Witchie, and occasionally Luca and Jake. The stacking is no where near as bad with these people and with Witchie the chances of spawn-camping are generally rather low. But when they are on they tend to draw people to them as well and cause stacking just by their mere presence (again said stacking is no where near as bad as that caused by Doom's presence (which occurs whether he likes it or not))
Solution to these problems I really cannot see any that would not create more and worse problems than we already have.
Since I find very little to no fun when large amounts of stacking occurs (or being forced to not play a specific class b/c of who is on the other team in order to NOT be specifically targeted by them, aka engi when Doom is on (I don't blame him it is the demo's job to blow my stuff to hell but it is still incredibly annoying to be targeted)) I tend to avoid the instances which cause the most frustration for me in the game (hence why I have not been plying tf2 when Doom is on or leaving a round or two after he joins) Simply b/c the stacking and being targeted becomes too frustrating and to avoid said frustration the only solution I can see is not playing when the chances of its occurrence is highest. Thus far said solution has worked rather well.
Should I randomly think of a solution for everyone I shall share it but at the moment I have only thought of a solution that works for me, and may seem like a jack-ass move to some people, but I am doing what I have to to have fun (which generally includes being a help to the team) So until such a time as a true effective solution is found I shall use this temporary fix.
Anyways that is all I will say on that.
/end wall-o-text.
Last edited by RumRunner on Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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