Spawncamping: The final word

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Postby iller » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:25 am

Witchiebunny wrote:Core definition: Any player seen loitering around their enemy's spawn following the traditional mapstart siege with intent to murder emerging players is in violation.

Discuss here.


...anything to even discuss now? Seems like this last one pretty much nailed it down tighter than a chibi Sub under a Hyper Taur.

I might have one example that presents problems, however it's only isolated to One single spawn room on one single map:
And that is the final Catwalks at the end of PL_Frontier. Sometimes it's almost impossible to get out of there without being sniped or charged by Pyros. I've even been sniped up there as a Spy WHILE I was invisible and it just strikes me as one Huge fluke rooted in a very brief misjudgment during the map's design phase.

I'm curious... If my Map-Fu was up to the Task, would the folks in charge here accept a Modified version of it?
...like for instance if it also included a big Optimization to the Visleafs so the map also ran smoother?
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Postby Arcalane » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:25 am

Ayeaka wrote:My question now; what about spies using cloak and dagger with intent of keeping teles down? They may be killing the engineer, but a spy alone certainly can't box an entire team in spawn.


They're still loitering, and it's frowned upon. We did actually have this come up and I've got a long enough chat log to repost part of it;

01:24 - Jinx: What about C&D spies who just stick around to take out tele entrances?
01:24 - Niko: Are they killing players?
01:24 - Niko: Not really..that's not the same thing.
01:24 - Elrabin: C&D sapping is fine.
01:24 - Ailure.taur.bz2: Spawncamping teleporters
01:25 - Ailure.taur.bz2: Although truth to be told, you don't survive long when spawncamping as a spy
01:25 - Elrabin: taking out tele's is one thing, killing everyone who comes out is another
01:25 - Witchiebunny: I would agree, the sapping is fine.


However, if you start repeatedly stabbing instead of focusing teleporters, expect to catch flak... even if the other team is too stupid to spyhunt... don't kick the dog, please. :P
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Postby iller » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:01 am

The only time I've "attacked" the Engineer when C&D sapping is a single Ambassador headshot to goad him into coming out and playing Hide and Seek with me. I suck at backstabs and Engineer is my main "profession" so I know exactly what to do to make other engineers as unproductive as possible. So I'd see no point at all to "farming" the Engie for points just to keep the Teleporter Down. ...That said, I don't raise a stink when a Spy DOES repeatedly kill me at the spawn, instead I build my Sentry on the Spawn, and duck back into resupply until I hear it being sapped. An Engineer who can't handle a Spy when he's got a Sentry out front and a Regen Cabinet behind him is either Drunk or facing a No-Spread Ambassador Aim-Botter.
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Postby NikkyVix » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:01 pm

Ayeaka wrote:My question now; what about spies using cloak and dagger with intent of keeping teles down? They may be killing the engineer, but a spy alone certainly can't box an entire team in spawn.


As Arcalane clarified: If you're hanging around the enemy's spawn with the intent to destroy teleporters or other buildings, and not killing players, then you aren't in violation. You're just frustrating the players' ability to gain an advantage, and not impeding their ability to get out and play. But if you kill a player and go back to lurking, that's a violation; you can understand how it gives the enemy team cause to believe that spawn-camping of their players is taking place. There are no class exemptions or "who is allowed to be killed" in this anti-loitering rule.

If your target is teleporters, target teleporters. Leave the players be.


Leif wrote:
Tehrasha wrote: Arguing 'intent' is where the new drama will be focused.


I'm a bit worried about this as well. I think we may need a bit more clarification. While I certainly am not the type of player who would resort to unfair tactics such as spawn-camping just for winning, there are situations where the spawn area can be accessed to give your team an advantage.

Example: As pyro (I've attempted this with Scout as well), I will go to the defensive spawn area while on offense to destroy teleporter entrances. Should an enemy happen to come around during that time-span, I will kill them as well. As soon as all buildings around the area have been destroyed, I tend to go on my way back to the primary area.

Question: Is this spawn-camping?


No. Because you are not loitering in the area with intent to kill, preventing people from being able to leave their spawn area to get into play.

Furthermore, before it's asked about: Yes, repeatedly leaving and returning to the enemy's spawn (with or without an ubercharge) to kill them every time they respawn is also spawn-camping, because of its effect in preventing players from being able to leave their spawn area and get into play.

Just be sportsmanlike and stay off of harassing the enemy's spawn, barring the occasional swing-by to kill teleporters or find a pathway through back to battle, and you will be fine.
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Postby NikkyVix » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:14 pm

If there are any questions about what is or is not Spawn-camping, we hope you'll forward people to this thread for the officially accepted regulation on it.

Sorry for it taking us over a year to do something like this. :p
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Postby Edward_Lapine » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:19 am

Yeah er, I made an accout here on TFP to address this issue. Either than that, The Furry Pound has generally been nice to me and I don't wish to be a bother to anyone. Anyways:

Earlier today I was playing a soldier on that new dual payload map (the last part I believe) and I had myself crouched in a corner somewhat near one of the BLU exits and of course, using this strategy I shot rockets out and killed no more than 2-3 folks until I was found out and killed. Immediately after that ordeal, I got harassed by a member for spawn camping and threatened to get an admin to ban me. This is a general thing I do to ambush folks at commonly traversed doorways and corners (which could be used to spawn camp, but I refrain from it despite the fact I think the rule is unnecessary... but I don't wanna get anyone's panties in a bunch here most of all!). An unknown admin came on, told us to stop fighting and told us not to spawn camp... fair enough. I told the person who accused me of spawn camping to fuck off and we continued on our merry way.

Basically anyone with half a brain can combat what you call spawn campers and heaven forbid you use team work to counter it. I don't wish to be a dick but I don't wish to be banned from some dumb whiny, butthurt furry who thinks I'm cheating. I wanna be a good guy here and have fun and all that jazz... I don't want any trouble. I make a conscious effort not to spawn camp and I feel I wasn't in this situation. If you feel otherwise, then the hell with you all, I'll stick to CC2iscool.

Thank you for your time.
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Postby Witchiebunny » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:42 am

You weren't banned or otherwise disciplined for anything more than fighting, it seems. So if you're not spawncamping, don't worry about it. Our admins are pretty well versed in spotting such things (we spent long enough hashing it out, after all) and if you're ambushing people and then moving on, then continue to do so as long as you're not *staying* there.

That said, whether spawncamping is easy to counter or not isn't the issue, it simply isn't allowed here. You're free to play wherever you wish-our aim is to help players have fun, above all else.
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Postby Tempest » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:43 am

Is it correct that the primary purpose of anti-spawncamping rules is to prevent people from taking advantage of the fact that one has to be next to a door before it will open thus providing an exploitable disadvantage to positioning?

if so,

Is blocking the only route between a spawn and an objective, without explicitly camping the door itself considered spawn camping?

For example, a blue sniper sniping reds on steel as they emerge onto the red balcony area at the first point. Killing in such an event is not based on the time at which the player left spawn, but rather when the player attempted to advance to the objective.

Another example would be setting up an offensive sentry in the vents on the last point of the second map of cranetop, it will not shoot into spawn, not even to in front of spawn, but it will shoot defenders attempting to advance into the cap room.

A third instance of the same scenario would be offense on Aqua rushing the last point using the ground level route, as it cuts off the route to the red spawn.

The only difference between the three scenarios being the physical distance run between leaving the spawn and being engaged.

Also, since confusion over the subject arose earlier today, Does the term spawn apply to spawn zones to their doors, or all the way out to the invisible walls where some permanently open starting gates are. Since for many maps these zones are the only effective position to snipe from generally for the first points of these maps and sniping from within the spawn is prohibited. Or does the initial-siege cover both offense and defense until the first cap?
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Postby Tehrasha » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:36 am

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Replace 'sex' with 'spawn-camping' and its dead on.
Thats all I heard in the mic chatter last night....
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Postby Witchiebunny » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:42 pm

If you're sniping from an area that the opposite team cannot get into, then you're spawncamping.

End of Story.
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