Spawncamping: The final word

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Postby Stormcaller3801 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:47 pm

Here's one that I'm on the fence about, mostly because I can see both sides of it. There's a map in the 4th round of the July test, I expect there's a decent chance a later version will be used as right now the only real issue is that it's confusing. Right outside one spawn entrance is a small shed- the same you can find near A in Gravelpit. Nothing inside it, but it's pretty much made for camping the spawn. I found this out when I ran through the gate and was immediately burned to a cinder by the Pyro hiding inside- who immediately ran away from the spawn and back to his own lines.

So I'm not sure whether that counts. On the one hand, he got a kill and ran off. I didn't see him back there again. But he was certainly sitting in there waiting for people to come out of the spawn to kill. Which some little part of my mind keeps flagging as a bad thing to do.

We also later switched sides and I got sniped from the spawn without being able to shoot the Sniper. Because of the team-filtered gates. Couldn't shoot him until he stepped forward and opened the gate, at which point he killed me.

Related note, sort of, are those maps that for whatever reason allow you to set up teleporter entrances inside the spawn area. Not, you know, the room itself, but adjoining areas that are sealed by gates and barriers. That just seems horribly unfair to opposing teams. In as much as I can sympathize with the desire to not have a teleporter destroyed (because $deity knows every single friggin time I try to set one up I inevitably get every other building sapped as soon as I so much as move out of Wrench range), it's meant to get blown up by good players. That's just part of the game.
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Postby Witchiebunny » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:00 pm

Let me see if I can make this as clear as possible:

DO NOT CAMP SPAWN. DO NOT STAY AT SPAWN AND KILL PEOPLE. DO NOT STICKY SPAWN. DO NOT SHOOT DIRECTLY INTO SPAWN. DO NOT SNIPE OUT OF SPAWN. DO NOT STAND AT SPAWN WITH THE EXPRESSED INTENT TO KILL PEOPLE. DO NOT STAND THERE AND KILL PEOPLE FOR MULTIPLE SPAWN WAVES. IN SHORT, DO NOT GO TO SPAWN OR BY SPAWN UNLESS NECESSARY AND IF YOU ARE CAUGHT STAYING THERE PAST THE INITIAL MAP SIEGE OR FOR MULTIPLE SPAWN WAVES EXPECT DISCIPLINARY ACTION. THERE IS NO EXCUSE IN THE WORLD THAT WILL EVER GET ME TO ALLOW SPAWN CAMPING SO QUIT IT.
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Postby NikkyVix » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:03 am

And to think..

Had it been me that said that, I would've used the next size font up. Be glad there's no flashing text modifier for the forum, too. :3

Don't forget that there are other alternatives out there to us if you find you simply cannot relate to or abide by such a simple rule. Use your reasoning as thinking, decision-making human beings instead of depending on an 11-page sub-articled explanation of dos and dont's.
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Postby Hissho » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:34 am

Arcalane wrote:Which part of "don't camp spawn doors" is that hard to understand, people?

At the risk of sounding rude, that's a bit of a cop-out considering I didn't say I had issues with rules against spawn camping. Rather, I have issues with the ambiguity of the rules and also the enforcement of the rules.

Arcalane wrote:One thing of note; we are not omnipresent all-knowing deities....

I didn't ask for admins to somehow be watching over everything in the game instead of playing. I said I have experienced multiple instances of admins seemingly not paying attention to the in-game chat where I'm indicating that people are spawn camping. Then I said that I typically thwart said spawncamping attempts ASAP after I've noted in chat that someone is attempting to spawn camp.

Ailure wrote:Problem is that we used to have a more complicated rules about what is allowed and isn't allowed with spawncamping,

OK, that's totally understandable. It'd probably be more work than it's worth, especially with casual gamers.

Ailure wrote:If you are capping a point and is only defending yourself it is fair to defend yourself against people who is attacking you, as long your main intent isn't spawncamping itself.

Is this actually the consensus? Because what I noted about Steel is perfectly acceptable then, and I have no problems with the rules. Like I said, if their spawn is immediately on top of the capture point, it's basically impossible to defend yourself without spawn camping. And this is fine, because the intent isn't to spawn camp just to agitate people; you're killing those people coming out of the spawn because if you don't, they're just going to trounce you while you're completing the map objective.


Ailure wrote:Teleport entrance camping... spies already have a hard enough time as it, being able to sneak into enemy base and take out the teleport entrances is one of the few strengths they have (Demomen are the superior class for taking out sentries...). Plus this rule is so unenforceable it's not even funny.

True, true.... It's just really frustrating to have a spy lurking around your spawn with Cloak and Dagger, sapping everything at the entrance 15 seconds after it's put up. And devoting a pyro to flaming everything near spawn isn't exactly enjoyable, and pulls one player away from the offensive. Or, more annoying (IMO) are dead ringer spies that hang around close to spawn. They're like cockroaches, and, like I said, after the teleports are gone, everyone has to huff it across the map, whereupon spies tend to backstab in an area 10 seconds of walking distance outside of spawn when the real fight is 30-40 seconds away from spawn. But the enforceability is definitely true. Not really sure what else to say about this right now, so I'll just let it be for now.

Ailure wrote:Sniping from spawn rule was a compromise since it was usually countered with... spawncamping.

Yeah, I see it. Someone sneaks back to the spawn just to kill a sniper who's camping there, then kills the sniper. But then 20 seconds later the sniper's back up in the same spot, so the same person counters the sniper, but runs into 2 other people spawning and kills them all to get out safely. Vicious cycle. Either way this is one of those ones that's almost entirely unenforceable too. I feel like I want to say more on this one too, but I can't find the words right now.

Witchiebunny wrote:(1)DO NOT CAMP SPAWN....

(2)IN SHORT, DO NOT GO TO SPAWN OR BY SPAWN UNLESS NECESSARY...

(3)THERE IS NO EXCUSE IN THE WORLD THAT WILL EVER GET ME TO ALLOW SPAWN CAMPING SO QUIT IT.


You can boldface, red font, marquee text all you want, but it doesn't clear up the contradiction I just highlighted, which is exactly the issue I have. (Compare lines 1 and 3 to line 2.)

People accuse others of unjust spawncamping and cry murder when an individual is spawncamping because the objective is right next to their spawn.

So which way is it? It's OK to spawn camp if the objective is right there or not? I agree with no spawncamping in other instances, but this is the area I hear the most arguing about, and it needs to be cleared up. (PS: read the section I highlighted blue that Ailure wrote. This adds to the confusion.)

(And I will note, in situations like I just described, I have the decency to not camp the spawn door, but at least be visible (able to be killed). And if I'm demoman, I put stickies in obvious, visible places that aren't directly on the spawn door. But that's all just a sidenote.)
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Postby Witchiebunny » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:46 am

It's NOT okay to camp Spawn to kill players, it is okay to rush past and destroy buildings/teleporters/anyone who happens to be wandering off.

Keep in mind the CAMP portion of the word spawncamp, and setting stickies down outside of spawn, regardless of how obvious they are, is NOT allowed.

EDIT: Thread unlocked as I've calmed down but seriously, this is NOT a hard concept.
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Postby Hissho » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:15 am

Witchiebunny wrote:It's NOT okay to camp Spawn to kill players, it is okay to rush past and destroy buildings/teleporters/anyone who happens to be wandering off.

Keep in mind the CAMP portion of the word spawncamp, and setting stickies down outside of spawn, regardless of how obvious they are, is NOT allowed.

EDIT: Thread unlocked as I've calmed down but seriously, this is NOT a hard concept.


The "obvious stickies" was just a sidenote. You didn't address the core issues I have.

1) If a player is currently completing a map objective (pushing bomb, capping point) and there is a spawn immediately next to the point, is it OK to "spawn camp"? (Maps that come to mind: point E Steel, map 2 cranetop final cap, pipeline). I believe it *should* be OK because it's necessary to defend yourself while completing the map objective. And in addition to that, Ailure posted earlier saying that this is OK as well, yet you're now telling me different. ...which leads into the next point.

2) No one has addressed my complaints regarding admins/mods, such as the mods not all being on the same page with rules, it seems like.
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Postby Witchiebunny » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:17 am

We're working to get all the admins/mods on the same page with the rules, don't you worry about that.

If they're persuing an objective next to spawn, then players are encouraged to fire at spawn ONLY if players are firing back from there and to STOP as soon as all of those firing from within spawn are gone. In other words, defend yourself, but don't push it any further than that.
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Postby Hissho » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:34 am

OK, so as a lone demoman capping a point directly next to a spawn, I'm reduced to waiting for someone to come out, waiting for them to shoot me, then firing my 4 pipe bombs before I die?

And, firing from inside spawn? Isn't that also spawn camping according to the rules?

Also, note your "players are ENCOURAGED to" wording. That leads me to believe that what I'm talking about isn't a bannable offense, but rather frowned upon, like nearly spawn camping spies.

I believe my argument is still legitimate that, for a demoman to defend himself while capping a final point, stickies near the enemy's spawn door are absolutely REQUIRED.

And to top it all off, you keep trying to make it sound as "simple" as "don't spawn camp", yet you're introducing all of these quirky "correct ways to sort of spawn camp", like this procedure of killing people that are already shooting at you from spawn idea.
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Postby NikkyVix » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:50 am

I swear, there's people who won't take a hint and learn to let their self-righteous crusades go when they're simply beating a broken drum.

This is leaping far past the point of reasoned argument and hovering about the Cove of Relentless Complaining.

Thread once again locked. Further railing on the matter is closed.
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Postby Witchiebunny » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:52 am

To use your example:

A demo shooting at you from spawn door E as you're capping.

Kill the demoman if he's firing from inside spawn or just outside of spawn.

Do NOT sticky the area after he's dead waiting for someone else to come out.

Defending yourself is NOT spawncamping. And someone firing from inside spawn are also violating the spawncamping rule.

Your argument is not correct, and I'm getting very tired of you trying to find loopholes to the rule. Again, this isn't hard and if you try again to find a loophole to this rule, I'll lock the thread and declare going by spawn AT ALL unless the map forces it (like turbine, Steel, etc) is an instant bannable offense.

I'm getting really sick of trying to counter EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE you think you can come up with. Stop trying to find loopholes so you can act like a jackass, act like a decent player and human being or don't play on our fucking servers.

EDIT: Ninja'd by a Nightfox.
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