An Issue I see with TFP TF2

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Postby WolfMacLeod » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:20 am

miniskunk wrote:Ok I was mistaking that aspect of the plugin with players trying to scramble the teams. It is nice that it automatically asks, but it happens so often in some games that it is almost like spam. If we said no why does it ask again a few mins later?


Having been the recipient of one of the nights where the plug-in was running, I'll jump in with my $.02 worth. Can't remember which map it was but one team was dominating very early on it was ugly. Two bad rounds later, the plug-in asks for a scramble vote.

Vote fails, next round the dominating team rolls and gets the round win in under three minutes, triggering a second vote, which again failed.

As for you saying "Why does it ask again a few minutes later?", maybe because it's so lopsided, it's expecting a team scramble and not just round after round of pain?
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Postby iller » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:13 am

^what McLeod said^ ...it's not uncommon for 1 team to win every round in under 4 minutes b/c the "twitchy" skill levels of TFP players runs from total-newb Pubber to almost-Comp/Pro...

I don't know how many hours you have logged in this week Mini, but I have almost 120 on the main TFP's and I've been watching it very closely....

miniskunk wrote:Now that the plugin is in use I have to say it isn't really helping promote enjoyment of the game.

Players who were always against teamstacking would say the same thing right now... of course both opinions are personal and not nearly as objective as the datamining the admins have access to... and of course based on entirely different metrics to begin with...

Since it does make it easier to scramble the teams, I am now seeing a scramble take place after nearly every round initiated by the losing team.

This is impossible unless a large percentage of the winning team A) Doesn't Vote B) Votes to scramble too...

As the scrambles take place more often

They're only taking place more often because teamstacking can no longer be sabotaged with Spectating to force autobalance. ...leading to more steamrolls and thus more Disparity between team-stats. And preventing that Spectating was the main point of the plugin change.

Many times both teams may suck for instance at defending and if allowed to play out without scrambling at the end of a round both sides playing as offense would win both rounds. I would add to my proposal to not allow a scramble until both red and blue have played through a full round of both offense and defense.

Sorry but you're wrong since the only maps this applies to are very long Push/Payload maps like Dustbowl and Hoodoo (16 minutes or more per side). All others can finish both side's phases in under 10 minutes each. The way it currently works, there's usually only time for 1 or 2 more rounds AFTER the steamrolls/Teamstacks have already occurred because most maps only run 30 minutes anyway. Meanwhile the votes have been failing to pass a scramble a lot more often on CP and KOTH maps where many scores are still looking like 5-1 and even 6-0 after 2 or 3 scramble triggers were reached.

I have also noticed scores are not being reset when a scramble takes place. All the hard work I do for my team ends up being handed over when I get switched.

...You'd prefer Teamstacking to be rewarded ? And what about the players who weren't switched, you'd rather the points they worked for be totally erased? I'm not taking a stance on this either way, I'm just asking the tough "entitlement" questions here that the plugin coders obviously had to ask themselves...

The team scoring system is a measurement of a teams overall skill and is part of the payoff.

How is stacking the odds against the other team a measure of Merit? One side just has faster computers and quicker reflexes than the other side a vast majority of the time. The voting system ensures that players take that into account and when it's obvious that one side is losing because it has 3 spies, 4 snipers, and no Medics; the vote has yet to pass 40%...

More often, it's a situation where the winning team is the one with 3 snipers, 3 demos, 3 soldiers, 1 lucky medic/engie, and 2 really kickass spies all running 20-30 points per player above the more balanced team who just had the unfortunate burden of being n00bs, IE: not knowing everyone on the server on the first name basis so they stupidly chose the "random" door.

I propose resetting the score if a scramble takes place as it did before. I know this resets the game timer as well. This should create a deterrent to the constant scrambling that is occurring.

And I counter-propose that the Percentage needed to pass the Vote after a Frag/Timer indifference Trigger is hit, be lowered to 40% because even a 50/50 vote currently FAILS to initiate a scramble and currently REWARDS teamstacking beyond the percentage that the old STT plugin allowed for.

I know there is no perfect solution to deal with stacking teams, but if the plugin can be adjusted to not allow scramble to happen so frequently I think this would go a long way toward finding the balance needed.

You're right about there being no perfect solution... but the result is out of our hands and entirely up to the TFP's owners. They have the stats and their own desired results. If you actually like teamstacking, then I think you're really looking this horse in the mouth because the way the plugin was adusted, teamstacking can reliably last longer now... (or atleast until everyone rage-quits). If it's not, then I guess you just ended up in a game where greater than 51% of the players were against it or just didn't like their teammates. ...as opposed to the 44% or whatever it took to pass one before this. All that's changed is that the game itself "nags" you with a vote once or twice per map when your team is steamrolling or getting rolled.
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Postby miniskunk » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:15 pm

Well I wish I could provide better suggestions. I really do not believe people set out to teamstack everytime as others are frequently claiming and I certainly don't want to reward it when it does happen on purpose. I was just feeling as a player I was being punished everytime I happen to be on a well organized team. We can't make every team a winner, only the players themselves can do that. Maybe as time goes on the issues I have experienced with the plugin will go away as people stop deliberately try to stack.
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Postby iller » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:06 am

I agree... I shoulda included a disclaimer stating I was only advocating the Flip-side perspective of it.

One thing I know: even if it doesn't happen often, cooperating with enough people you wouldn't normally team with, can lead to some synergies and tactics that win the game just as well as teaming with an inner circle of Alphas and it's good to experience that too, keeps the burnout at bay. This isn't a PuG server, consecutive wins shouldn't be the goal.
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Postby Tails » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:38 pm

I have to say that I like this plug in but there are parts of it that I dont really like that much and that being:
the instant team switch, if it would happen during set up I wouldint mind but the way it is now I cant count the times when a round started and a scramble happened and I ended up alone against 3-5 of the enemy team.

another thing is medics and engineers: several times I seen engineers and medics switched when they were the only medic/engie on the team and put on the other team which already had 1 or 2 and the game gone in the obvious direction.

now I dont know about these plug ins at all but is it possible for this to be made so teams are not deprived of important classes and put on the team that has them already?

other than that I think this plug in is great
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Postby FlareKitsune » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:15 pm

*My $0.02*

If I get autobalanced after either punching a hole in the other teams defense, or defending a critical point/intel, then yes. I am going to switch to spectator and go back onto my original team.

You want to balance it that badly? STT. Don't force it on people, Valve.
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Postby Witchiebunny » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:06 pm

FlareKitsune wrote:*My $0.02*

If I get autobalanced after either punching a hole in the other teams defense, or defending a critical point/intel, then yes. I am going to switch to spectator and go back onto my original team.

You want to balance it that badly? STT. Don't force it on people, Valve.


And if you are caught doing this, you will be kicked for re-forcing autobalance, and if it's a full game, you'll have a strike against you for taking up a spot someone else could be taking while you're in spectator.

Do not taunt happy fun admin.
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Postby Sekh765 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:11 pm

FlareKitsune wrote:*My $0.02*

If I get autobalanced after either punching a hole in the other teams defense, or defending a critical point/intel, then yes. I am going to switch to spectator and go back onto my original team.

You want to balance it that badly? STT. Don't force it on people, Valve.


Actually, no, you won't. Since the new plugin prevents you from doing it. Like, completely. It even tells you you can't do it. Attempting to circumvent said plugin will make me sad.
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Postby FlareKitsune » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:54 pm

Sekh765 wrote:
FlareKitsune wrote:*My $0.02*

If I get autobalanced after either punching a hole in the other teams defense, or defending a critical point/intel, then yes. I am going to switch to spectator and go back onto my original team.

You want to balance it that badly? STT. Don't force it on people, Valve.


Actually, no, you won't. Since the new plugin prevents you from doing it. Like, completely. It even tells you you can't do it. Attempting to circumvent said plugin will make me sad.


And yet when I'm playing, I'll see "So-and-so it's trying to re-stack the teams! For shame!" (the going to spectator)

It can't be enforced. People do this ALL the time. Wait for the teams to be evened out, then switch to spec.
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Postby Jinx » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:16 pm

FlareKitsune wrote:And yet when I'm playing, I'll see "So-and-so it's trying to re-stack the teams! For shame!" (the going to spectator)

It can't be enforced. People do this ALL the time. Wait for the teams to be evened out, then switch to spec.


I can see the validity in arguing over things that can't be enforced. :roll:
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