Spawn camping

[Funshade]

I was suggested to go onto the forums as apparently this is a 'communtiy' run server. And therefore regardless of what people say. I should voice my Opinion or therefore not contribute. Chances are it will be commented with things like 'qq go play a different server' But i have to say it anyway. i dont want the only voice being throes who are raging about being spawn camped. i currently think its too harsh.

Before i continue im going to state how i feel for throes who dont like reading the explanation (its ok... i do it too)
-I see spawn camping as using the Open/Close Doorways to gain the advantage of distance or supprsie on a opposing player.
-If a person can Safely walk out of their doorway without being harmed is not spawn camping.
--Examples
----A sniper shooting at people as they open the door from their spawn.
----Stickys with the splash radius in or at the door with the abblity to harm or kill within one foot of the door to supprise them
----Sentries pointed at the door to catch people off guard or difficult to deal with because of the open/close door.
--Not Examples
----Open door spawn shields. (walking into danger is not the same as being Caught in danger)
----If the spawn is in direct line of sight and within a sticky launcher of a 45 degree angled shot. (not charged, The sticky is just the idea of medium range.)

Playing the servers is fun as they are full and only once in a blue moon is some one really a douche on the server that cant be dealt with. Played on them for 6 mouths now, and even more so as not my main server to play. basic day. i go play Steel. i was doing my general tactic on steal witch is to take my engie self and go build near E where it points at the spot in front of Red's door like i have done countless times in the past. The diffrence is this time there is a lot of commotion going on in the mic chats about somthing spawn camping. im not paying much attention as im at a friends house and dont like the volume on to loud. All the sudden some demo man walks up and starts blocking my sentries shots, and telling me in angry tones to tare it down.

Wait what? im guarding E. and my senteriy isent pointed at the door so its not like im mostly appalled that some one is tell me to tear down something i built so many times before. Well it gets destroyed because some douche was blocking my sentire and effectively causing his teammate trouble. People are barking at me telling me i was spawn camping. ok whatever. continue the game. teams swtich sides. im on red YAY! i get to supprise people at the spawn who wait at the door for E. I go build my sentry to level 3 before the game starts in the tunnel. it shoots down a few scouts and a level 2 sentry gun. they are ducking behind the wall shooting rockets at it effetively.

... oh my god. The SAME person comes along blocking my sentrys bullets so the other team can blow up my sentry and once again calling it spawn camping. Ok this time they are not even AT a door. my Sentry BLEW UP one of theirs in the same spot not more then 3 feet away. why do they get to build there and i cant?! so i start to complain and try to express its not spawn camping and they tell me to not do it again or they will kick me. (i dont even know who was telling me this. wasent paying to much attention). i explain to them its not spawn camping and if they have to kick me then they should. Kicked. go saw that one coming.

I go to a diffrent Furrypound server and start chatting it up and they a few say that i wasent spawn camping and other say 'go check the fourms. they have the rules posted there. Fine. i go check to see exactly what i did was wrong or not.

"Any player seen loitering around their enemy's spawn following the traditional mapstart siege with intent to murder emerging players is in violation."

First of all. i should not of been in violation for being at the B tunnel. but apparently i was kicked anyway.

Seconed of all That is the MOST GENERIC RULE i have EVER seen. 'loitering' and 'around' spawn? how far is around. Define how much is Loitering! This is the kinda rule that just says "when an admin is pissed off at you. shape up" Now i realize how silly people sound when they say 'go read the forum' as all the 'forum' says is dont spawn camp. and doesnt Proceed to Clarify it. A day later, i end up talking to a person who knows more about the issue then I sure do. and explains to me whats camping whats not.

-Nouthing past the payload where people spawn (if its near the gate. its doesnt cout)
-If people have pushed past the area you are in. its spawncamping (stickys on the spawn gate of Gravel pit if the point ahead of him was already captured.)
-If you make it before set up timer. its ok
-Wither your defending a point your on or not its a 50-50 chance admins will kick or not care. (example is E fighting and shooting at doorways)

-There needs to be clear definition of what is spawn camping. it doesnt matter if there is more bitching as currently the ones who bitch to admins on wither it was camping or not... just get kicked. I hear 'the admins are getting on the same page' but that wont happen UNLESS There is a clear defention.

If you have to take the overhead views of the maps and Draw out what was spawn camping and what isent Do it. it takes a Jpg and Ms Paint.

[Jinx]

The definitions are clear (and the argument old): with the exception of the start-up siege on payload / attack-defend capture point type maps players should not be hanging around the other team's spawn (unless they are capturing). If your sentry on E had line of sight to RED's spawn doors then that is in violation (your description isn't really clear where it was exactly). Sentries guarding the B tunnel against BLU are fine; due to design BLU can't really be spawn camped at all.

[Sekh765]

In depth version of the rules. They are quite detailed and most of our players agree that they are easy enough to follow.

http://www.hiddendisguises.com/Forums/v ... f=12&t=180

[Funshade]

If what you say is true. my Sentry was at a 90 degree angle to the door. if they where to walk out of spawn it would shoot them form about 50 meters to the left. they where not aimed at specificly the door. so i was kicked and talked down to for somthing that wasent agiesnt the rules

[pablofiasco]

not being offensive or anything butm
i cant wrap my head/imagation around your discription of where the sentry was, any chance of getting a quick ms-paint map or somesuch?

[Funshade]

Its not pointed at the door. people have to leave the spawn and can safely stand at the door unharmed

[NikkyVix]

[Funshade]

See i think that what the main issue i had was. I see the word 'spawn camping' as using the spawn as an advantage situation Where i use the spawn as a overhanded advantage to get extra kills. When really use guys use it as 'When your are Using a weapon or ability to block an exit / entrance.

(Just as a forheading. mostly the only only only issue i have with this IS STEEL. i dont like the map first off.)

This unfortunately leads to many many problems witch of course im sure your aware. such as places with points CLOSE to spawns. The easiest example is once again steel (this is the appitemey of necessary spawn camping)

Demoman on D. Trying to capture the point. no one else around to help him. i walk out a sniper taking the path by the glass. there are two sticky bombs on the platform but mostly he is just being frantic trying to protect himself by shooting sticky s everywhere above him and pipbombs at the other entrence. i move out to the platform and try to shoot down at him. he explodes it i die no big deal.

But lets think about this.

On one hand. i shot down at him. a attempt to kill him
On the other hand. i could of been scared of the pipe bombs and not gone that way as its a form of Denial and therefore according to your rules. spawn camping.

When does self preservation and spawn camping meet. Am i not allowed to protect myself as it causes rage on the other team?

[NikkyVix]

[Funshade]

Playing again a few times. This time it was yet of couse steel and a blue put a sentry in the 'no camping spot' as see from above pictures. As it turns out most people where shocked to hear of this. Really ... 6 seperete people. said it WASENT SPAWN camping. one person agreed with me that it was. As the game went on chat starteded happening, Discussing the entire thing, most people where more favorable on the fact of defending yourself warrents above all. infact. a few complaints where thrown out about other maps such as crain top being a big problem. and the main spawncamping idea is to kill with the intent of points and killing, Defending yourself is compleatly excluded if you have to go past spawn rooms. I now this got me thinking one of two things.

1. There are not enough admins to spread theses rules.
--(ill probobly get beaten to death for this but well here it goes)--
2. Perhapes the Majortiy of the community does not think your rules on spawcamping should be as strict as you have set them up to be. So far here is what i have found out

1- When spawn camping as the sentry on E for steel. generly 1 or 2 people complain.
2- once in a blue moon do people complain about sticking the door when defending yourself on a point.
3- So far most people i have asked around agree with me.
4- the people who do not tend to be more radical about the idea.
5- most of the time. people just deal with it and play the game.

I REALY REALLY Hate to say this, and no fingers pointed in general or offence to anyone but here is the idea behind it.
----People in power Feel the need to do things with this. such as protect the innocent from wrongdoers.
----People in power tend to feel they share the same ideas with throes who they are protecting even though most don't say anything.
----People who directly complain about the RULES generality get insaintly shutdown by admins. as they dont want to deal with it. so its hard to voice agienst it
----People who complain about PLAYERS Get the benefit of the doubt. and get instant attention.

I have herd. "Most people on this sever dont voice their opinions. Even if they dont complain, thats how they feel" This is the main problem im feeling. currently after reading your other posts so far it seems most of your rule making is 90% admins talking to other admins with 10% imput from people who complain about it when your on at the time. Lets take example of the conversation you had about C&D camping. Jinx, Niko, Elrabin, Ailure, and witchiebunny. Admins, Admins, Admins. There seems to be this overall "we made the rule accept it" When people like Hissho complain about the strictness of your rules and lock the thread, then back hand with the "We make the rules as a community" Hissho and I Have relativity the same idea AND BETTER YET are the one of the few NOT ADMINS who voice their opinion on the server not just ask questions. And your instant response is

'its not ok to spawn camp why cant you understand that'

Its Not that we don't understand what you are saying we just don't agree the extent that you are saying it.

Please ask around. And please focus on the people REALLY trying to camp door. not everything that just slightly falls under spawn camping.