My opinion of Valve's official KotH maps.

[CrashFu]

(Heh. I was going to put this in TF2 General, but uhh.. it turned out more appropriate for THIS section of the forums)


I'm quite pleased that Valve finally recognized the King of the Hill game type by converting some arena maps into KotH! Maybe now all of the community created KotH maps, such as my koth_ziggurat, will become more mainstream. I mean, hell.. a while back I tried to establish the KotH map category on FPS Banana and a moderator deleted it, saying that KotH wasn't popular enough to deserve it's own category, and told me I had to post KotH maps under "Other". ... ... Well screw him!

Now, as much as I'm pleased to see Valve make (*cough* ... convert, I should say) some KotH maps of their own, I've got to say, well... I don't think they're very good.

Biggest issue: It takes like a whole friggen' minute to capture the damn things but you only have to hold them for three to win. This means that whoever caps first will almost always win. This makes the maps just.. utterly frustrating. In my own map, the points take a couple seconds for one person to capture them, and you have to hold for 5 minutes to win. This ensures that the map will switch over a lot and the round will be very close and intense and satisfying, and if you make that valiant push to clear the defenders from the point you will reap the satisfaction of a successful capture, instead of being removed from the point at 10% through the cap time by the same guy you just killed off of it!

Second biggest issue: The cap points on all of their maps are open. Really open. You can snipe and spam explosives and stun-balls onto the point from your own base. THIS is why 2/3 of the possible CP's in Ziggurat are inside an enclosed structure. You have to actually get NEAR the point to contest it. As for the third point on my map, well... See my fourth biggest issue further down this post.

Third Biggest Issue: Most of Valve's KotH maps are designed so that you can construct sentries in places that they can very effectively cover the point but cannot easily be destroyed themselves, being only approachable from the front. It takes time to dislodge a sentry if you can't flank it, and as I mentioned before, time is not something Valve gave us.

Fourth Issue: Valve's maps are so constricted and linear. Your base -> Two or three narrow corridors -> The hill -> Two or three narrow corridors -> Their base. What does this mean? You cannot get around behind the enemy. You can only push straight ahead in suicidal frontal attacks. In the event that you manage to push them back far enough, then you get to spawn camp. NONE of this is good! People say my map is too big but it's actually quite a short distance from just your base to the point. My map SEEMS big because I've left you the option to GO AROUND. To FLANK the enemy. To have base exits far enough apart that one guy can't camp all of them by himself. I don't care if it's a single player map or a multiplayer map, Linear maps SUCK.

It's clear that valve spends a lot of time making their maps LOOK pretty, but they clearly don't spend enough time designing them from a gameplay perspective. I spent OVER A YEAR carefully planning out every nook and cranny and corner of my map to counter any conceivable gameplay issue. You can call mine too dark, or too big, or too open, but at the end of the day it's a heck of a lot more satisfying to play on than the three king of the hill maps Valve churned out.

[Stormcaller3801]

Actually my experience on Viaduct was that it's a pretty solid KotH map. And as far as I'm aware, it's more or less the only map designed with KotH in mind. Spawn leads to an open area with four ways out to the battlefield (or three, I can't remember). You can't reach the center point from there. Past that wall o' doors, there's upwards of four ways to the point- two side entrances and two more or less direct paths. I can't remember if there's more- I keep thinking there's a building you can run in by I don't know if you can get in there spawn-side. The side entrances are set up with one favoring Engies with a cubbyhole area that has a medium ammo box for setting up in. The opposite side's more in favor of Snipers, being elevated, no ammo, and set up with a fairly straight bit of path you can sidestep in while zoomed. The point itself is elevated enough that it's difficult to fire a linear weapon and hit it until you pass through the second set of 'doorways' and basically commit to an approach. Then there's four L-shaped barriers at the corners to help protect it while not making it impossible to assault.

Watching people move around it was fairly obvious you could flank, and it happened quite a bit via Scouts and Spies and the occasional Pyro. You just have to see which path the other team is ignoring (usually the Sniper-favoring one) and use it to loop around.

Sawmill was decent, but honestly about eighty percent of the map was being ignored. All the fighting was going on at the point or the doorways to reach it. Other than the occasional chase to catch someone fleeing and the odd Pyro or Scout attempting to harass people on the way in, the map was pretty much unused.

Nucleus was getting the entirety of the map used to fight on, but there's not a lot of options if you want to get to the point quickly. This isn't an issue with Arena because you're hunting the other team and nobody's going back to the spawn, but with KotH and no increased health or ammo, you quickly find yourself relying on the cabinet to recover. Sawmill's much the same way with the two bottles of pills being the main grab item of choice. Nucleus though, there's no real guard against spawn camping and it's very predictable as to where the enemy is going to show up. Having four direct paths to the point with huge open areas around them and little protection also means that if you're not able to fight at range very well, you're going to do best staying off that point.

I think as more KotH maps get made specifically for it, as opposed to being repurposed Arena maps, it'll improve.

[CrashFu]

No no no, you can't flank someone in Viaduct because the map is designed to bottleneck through the capture point in the center. If you want to cross over into enemy territory, even just far enough to take a shot at the sentry guns hiding around the corner, you HAVE to get dangerously close to the capture point. You know, that area that is being watched by three sentries, four snipers, and is littered with sticky bombs? Passing through the most heated and well guarded point on the entire map is NOT flanking.

[Stormcaller3801]

As someone who has fairly routinely been running towards the point with the intent of defending or capturing it, only to spin around and find myself facing an oncoming Scout, Pyro, or Spy for the other team:

Yes, you can flank in Viaduct.

[Sekh765]

[Stormcaller3801]

Separate side paths are out, obviously- they just flat out don't exist. But based on the games I've played (admittedly not very many) most of the time teams will concentrate on the paths that lead to the wooden platforms- the ones perfect for Engineers. They tend to focus there, have some moving up the middle, and few to none on the opposite side. Similarly, teams will watch the center or the side they favor, focusing on immediate threats and the direction the other team is likely to follow. This leads to opportunities for Scouts, Spies, Pyros, and even occasionally others to slide around where people aren't looking and then attack from behind or the side.

Admittedly this is mostly extrapolation- if I saw how they did it, I wouldn't have been flanked and died. However, I've also seen it work to a limited degree with Soldiers, Snipers, and Demomen using the snowy ridge to rain havoc on the center. People don't look over there, so they don't tend to see where the 'nades and rockets are coming from- which is boosted when the firer steps back behind cover between shots, or arcs them up and over. Given the ability of these people to drop multiple 'nades and rockets, or set up a sentry, or just stand there and snipe while my team ran around shooting the Heavies, Engies, Pyros, Medics, and anyone else coming from the other side or up the middle, I think it's pretty safe to assume you could slip past there hugging the wall and not drawing attention to flank people.

And if you're an Engie, maybe even drop a 'porter exit somewhere you wouldn't see running out of those doorways and up towards the point.

[CrashFu]

[Stormcaller3801]

I've only ever had the blades go invisible on me once- and that was quickly corrected since the bloodied versions fixed the issue. I have noticed some odd behavior, but I don't know if it's bugs or if it's just the fact I suck. Things like running into an open area, spinning 360º, seeing nobody, hearing nothing, and then getting backstabbed. No allies nearby so it couldn't have been a disguise, no high places to drop down from, no corners to hide in that I know of, just standing still about to charge in, and then bam! Middle of the backstab death animation.

[CrashFu]

[iller]

Damnit, Bobby...